Kate: José, we're about to start our sixth season and I have a very important question José: Tell me, what question? Kate: What artwork do you have in your master bedroom? José: It's not that I have a painting, really, but I have photos of my family because I feel that, in your room, in the place where you sleep, you should surround yourself with objects that have sentimental value. What about you, what do you have? Kate: Well, you’ve caught me at a moment when I’ve just moved into a new house, and I barely have anything on the walls. But I share your opinion that it’s important to have very sentimental things in the bedroom, because in the end, where you sleep, you need good things around you to bring good dreams, right? José: I’m just going to say off the record that Kate Mears, art historian, doesn’t have a single painting in her bedroom, period. Kate: "Come on. Well, that’s actually related to today’s episode, because we’re going to talk about a painting of the Flight into Egypt attributed to Vásquez, a XVII century colonial painter, which is currently housed at the Colonial Museum of Colombia. So, welcome to: José: Things have life. Kate: This is a weekly podcast where we talk about a historical object with the researcher who studies it. This week, we have the privilege of discussing this painting with Professor Olga Isabel Acosta Luna. She is an associate professor in the Department of Art History at Universidad de los Andes and has specialized in the study of colonial and viceregal art in the Americas. She has also studied how its narratives and images were produced in the XIX century, particularly in the formation of biographical writings, collections, and museums. So, welcome, Olga José: Welcome. Olga: Thank you, Kate. Thank you, José, Thank you for the invitation. Kate: We’re very excited to kick off this new season, our sixth season, with this painting, and that’s why we’d like to start by asking: how would you describe this object, this painting, so that our audience can picture it? Olga: Well, let’s see, this is a painting, it’s an oil on canvas… Just to help us picture it: the size is what we might call medium; it’s 1 meter 13 centimeters tall by 1.5 meters wide, with the frame included, and the frame itself has a whole story behind it. It’s a depiction of the Flight into Egypt of the Holy Family, that is, Mary, Joseph, and the newborn child at night. It’s a night that I think feels a bit summery, which is quite particular, because even though it’s a flight into Egypt, the forest looks more European, almost Flemish. That’s because the painting is based on an engraving by Rubens. It was apparently made in Santa Fe de Bogotá. So, the nighttime setting, the main scene, is lit slightly by a torch carried by the angel who is guiding the family. What we see in the foreground is the Virgin with the child, riding a donkey, and Joseph leading it by the halter. In the background, it’s a bit dark, it’s a full moon night and we can make out the soldiers, Herod’s army, who are presumably pursuing everyone, all the parents with children, but here in particular, the Holy Family. So, the painting shows us that nighttime escape to Egypt. José: So, you’ve given us this first clue: that it’s based on an engraving by Rubens, right? But who painted this painting? Olga: This is a work attributed to what we could call the most famous painter of the XVII century in Nueva Granada, which is present-day Colombia, named Gregorio Vásquez de Arce y Ceballos. This painting has been attributed to Vásquez from very early on, along with two other very similar paintings of the Flight into Egypt. So, this painting has a history that runs parallel to other canvases by Gregorio Vásquez de Arce y Ceballos. What we know about him is that he was a painter born around 1639 in Santa Fe de Bogotá, and he died around 1711. He has a huge biographical history that starts taking shape in the XVIII century during his lifetime but especially strengthens in the second half of the XVIII century, and in the XIX century, it reaches its peak. I mean, Vásquez becomes a superstar in the XIX century, and what we know about this work is also tied to that reception and critical fortune of Gregorio Vásquez de Arce y Ceballos. Kate: And you’ve told us that he made three copies, but we’d like to know a bit more about why he created this painting of the Flight into Egypt. Olga: Well, we don’t know. We have no idea. What we do know is where it was, more or less, since the late XVIII century, in a family home called the Cuervos-Urizarri house. And that’s what makes it so particular, because it was in a family home. Whether it was previously in a church or another location, unfortunately, we don’t have the documentation... The other two copies, one is much larger in size and is in the Church of San Agustín in Bogotá. That painting was indeed in the church and is still there. What’s the theory? It’s believed that this one was perhaps the first, because it has been a very famous painting in the history of Gregorio Vásquez. Even in the second half of the XIX century, there were internal conflicts, and this painting was constantly moving around, so, this painting also has its own story of going back and forth. And the third copy is a painting that for a long time was thought to be anonymous. In some classifications made in the early XX century, they even referred to it as the 'ugly’ one of the bunch, poor thing. But, in my research on the three paintings, I found that it was a work that apparently was in the high choir of the Church of Santa Inés de Montepulciano. Santa Inés de Montepulciano was the Dominican convent for Dominican nuns founded in Santa Fe de Bogotá in the XVII century. Today, neither the church nor the convent exists, so that work also 'fled,' right? It’s quite amusing because these three paintings, these three flights, also fled. Their history has a lot to do with their iconography. José: And in this family home you’re telling us about, since the larger one is in a church, but where was it located? Did it have a specific space within that house? Olga: Yes, well, we’re lucky, right? Because the good thing is that there’s data; the family recorded information about the artwork. So, we know that the couple Cuervo and Urizarri, the Cuervo’s name was Rufino Cuervo Barreto and he later became president of the Republic, for a short while, not long, but he was painted as president, although he was president for just a very brief period, as tends to happen here. And María Francisca Urizarri, they married young, well, for that time, not so young; they married in 1826, he was about 25 years old, and she was 20. So, around 1840, they created a book called the Libro de Cuentas del Matrimonio (Marriage Account Book). He died in 1853, and the book covers everything from 1840 to 1850. It’s a precious document, it’s a notebook where he says, ‘And in the kitchen, I had this, and in the desk, I had this.’ And that’s where we found, thanks to the Caro y Cuervo Institute, that they had three works attributed to Vásquez or by Vásquez. They say they’re by Vásquez. And the Flight into Egypt was in the couple’s bedroom. So, there’s something very beautiful that I was looking into: the Flight paintings used to be placed in bedrooms because the Flight depicted protection, right? I mean, the Flight into Egypt shows how Saint Joseph is protecting his family, right? So, the Flight also has this particularity... Well, it’s also a nighttime representation, almost like a form of protection, right? Protecting the family from something happening. That’s my interpretation, right? Maybe they placed it there for another reason, but unfortunately, I can’t use a Ouija board, or travel back in time to ask them. But in this marriage book, it does say it was in the bedroom. José: So, how does this painting go from this room, let’s say in this house, to the museum? Olga: This painting is in this house, right? We know at least since 1840, one of the children of that marriage later said that it had been in the house for three generations. That means the grandparents must have had it. This suggests, I think, at least since the late XVIII century. So, well, in the mid-XIX century, it’s in the house, decorating the bedroom. The parents die. We don’t know what happens to the paintings after that. What we do know is that two of the siblings, named Ángel Cuervo and Rufino Cuervo, not the father, you know, in Latin America, well, in the Hispanic world, the same name is passed down through many generations, so this was Rufino José, the son, like the youngest son, inherit… Well, family matters. And in the end, they’re fed up with Colombia and they had already gone to Europe, and in 1882, they sold everything and moved to Paris. But what’s curious is that they sold everything, they had a brewery, so the beer funded this trip. Kate: Olé! Cheers! Olga: Yes, they sell the beer and the brewery, and they leave, bringing their belongings to Paris. Among those belongings are the two paintings by Vásquez: The Flight and The Child with the Thorn... I think Saint Aurelia didn’t make the trip, and I have no idea what happened to it, but apparently, Saint Aurelia didn’t travel. So, these two paintings go to Paris, and they keep them in their apartment... I might be mistaken here, but I think they had two apartments, and they kept them in their house in Paris. Kate: Were they in the bedroom again? Or are we unsure of where they were. Olga: I don’t know, it’s very interesting, I mean, especially because Ángel Cuervo is quite a connoisseur, he’s a very cultured guy who writes about art. He writes some incredible texts at the end of the XIX century, but he has this thing with Vásquez, it really gets to him. By the end of the 19th century, he’s very critical of Vásquez because of everything that happened to his father, as you can imagine I mean, Vásquez must have been a topic of conversation at the table, the family must have talked about it. And he really tries to understand Vásquez’s place when he’s in Europe, so he writes a wonderful text called Artistic Conversations, and Vásquez comes up now and then, not all the time, but sometimes. And he compares him, saying, 'Well, we’re a little off because we thought he was a great, but he can’t be a great in such an infertile place as Santa Fe de Bogotá in the XVII century.' There’s this thing where he says, the guy was good, but if he had had the opportunities of the Europeans, he would have been incredible... but he wasn’t. He was a guy who did his job well, but he sort of lowers him down; he’s not a genius. So, he dies, and what we believe, along with the people at the Caro y Cuervo Institute, is that it was Ángel who cared about the paintings because his brother was busy writing a dictionary of the Spanish language. And it really seems like Ángel is the one who was motivated by the paintings. After Ángel dies in 1896, I think, his brother stops writing, but he stays in Paris, so he survives for 15 more years. What does he do? I’m not exactly sure. So, Ángel dies, and what Rufino does is pack everything up, he calls in an expert, someone who, according to the documents we have, is called a tablo expert, and he asks him to assess the works. At that time, in the mid XIX century, a painting cost 60 pesos, but by the end of the century, it costs 200 francs. I haven’t done that economic study, but it would be worth doing, right? To understand whether the price went up or down. And he sends it to the National Museum of Colombia, not as a work of art, but as a national monument. So, while it goes to Paris and back, the painting changes from being a work of art to a historical document. And he sends it to Bogotá. And so, we have letters from the museum director, and in 1898, he says: 'Mr. Rufino, thank you very much for your painting.' It’s also a very careful shipment, because that is documented. They separate the canvases from the frames, the frames come in one box, and the paintings in another, and he sends more items because they buy artwork in Europe. The collection is quite eclectic, because it includes things like a Greek amphora, for example, and Vásquez’s painting. Kate: And why do they call it a historical document when it comes back? What does it mean for them to shed the concept of an artwork? Olga: I think it’s all because of what I told you about Vásquez, I mean, he’s the great one. Ángel Cuervo is already critical after everything that happens with the paintings in the 30s when they take them to Paris and the French say those are cheap paintings. They say, 'They’re cheap paintings made in Seville for the convents in America.' That’s what the French say at that time. And Ángel Cuervo, really, is quite cosmopolitan and writes these Artistic Conversations; he doesn’t detach himself from his roots, he talks about Rosa Bonheur, he talks about the exhibitions he sees in Paris, he doesn’t care about Latin America. He’s like a resident of Paris. So, I think, in comparison, he says, well, we went overboard, but it’s an important painting by someone who painted in the XVII century. That’s why he sends it. And the brother, I don’t think he decides much. So, it’s like Ángel’s will, we believe, at the Caro y Cuervo Institute, and well, he sends it. José: And what is the current appreciation of this painting in the museum or by the public? I mean, is there a clear idea of its importance or not? How is it ultimately appreciated? Olga: Well, let’s see, as for Vásquez, yes, the thing is, it’s a question with many answers, okay? The first thing is that I forgot to mention, it arrives at the National Museum of Colombia, and in the mid XX century, in 1942, the Colombian state founded... The Colombian state founded the Museum of Colonial Art, okay? They belonged to the same institution, and between comings and goings, and exhibitions, the National Museum of Colombia transferred this painting to the Museum of Colonial Art. So, since 1942, this painting has been at the Museum of Colonial Art, which is now called the Colonial Museum. So, it went from the National Museum, which wasn’t an art museum at the time, to the Museum of Colonial Art. Vásquez is a whole topic in Colombia. Right? He’s not Fernando Botero, I should say, I mean, he’s not that famous. Sometimes I think he’s very famous, but he’s still a niche painter, like almost all these painters from the vice-royalties, right? The American vice-royalties, I mean, they’re not that famous, right? But all the works are related to Vásquez, so yes, they have received some appreciation, but more as a package, right? But this painting has been like just one more of Vásquez’s works, whereas the one in San Agustín, no, that one has always been considered the work of Vásquez. I have an article I wrote once where it seems that Humboldt saw it and said, ‘It’s the best work.’ Humboldt didn’t know Rubens, no. So, he says, ‘Wow, it’s the best work,’ and it’s the one in the church, not this small one, because, well, this small one... So, it’s being exhibited right now, after coming back from the exhibition. I’m not sure if it’s already in the exhibition hall at the Colonial Museum. The Colonial Museum no longer has a dedicated space for Vásquez. Let’s say they’ve somewhat removed the problem of Vásquez, and now they have thematic rooms, where there are works by Vásquez, and there were also some of these Flight paintings, right? They own two: the 'ugly' one I mentioned, and this other one. So, the exhibition we did at the Caro y Cuervo was also partly about acknowledging life, right? A journey, some pathways for this painting of the flight. But I would say it’s just one more; it’s one more of Vásquez’s works, there’s no incredible appreciation for it like for others, no. Kate: For now, up until now, right? We want to bring this conversation a bit into the present, right? And think a bit about what’s happening in our current world, because at the time of recording this conversation, we are in the middle of the crisis between Israel and Hamas. And that’s why we would like to reflect a little on how these moments, how colonial art can help us contemplate what’s happening in the world today. Olga: Well, this work I think we could say is very conceptual in its historical journeys as well. It’s a representation of a flight, of displacement, of forced displacement, but the painting itself and the three representations of the flight I’ve mentioned also carry with them a history of displacement, right? Something that I find very interesting is that this is a work from a family collection, there are affections tied to the object, and you can imagine what a move in 1882 must have been like, and any decision about what to take is important. They weren’t fleeing, it wasn’t a forced displacement, but it’s still about taking something that I think was linked to a family past, right? Not just this collector’s thing. Well, on the one hand, that, and yes, what you’re saying about what’s happening right now between Palestine and Israel, but to bring it a bit closer to Latin America, the displacement that must be happening right now, that you also mentioned in Quito as a humanitarian corridor, well, Latin America is constantly living through displacement. A country like Colombia has alarming numbers of displaced people due to its history of violence. So, these are internal displacements within the country, right? Where people, families with children, have had to leave at night, fleeing from violence, from the threat, just like the flight to Egypt, from assassination, they were going to kill the child, they were killing. I don’t know if this resonates with you, but the iconography and representations of the Massacre of the Innocents are terrible, I mean, that’s what we’re living now, right? How many dead, how many thousands of deaths have there been in less than a week? Here, regardless of the images that show us these massacres of the innocent, of the children, it didn’t matter, right? I mean, they were murdered, and it’s the mothers crying, defending their children. So, in the face of that imminent danger, they had to run, right? And it’s the possibility of running away, I think now, for example, the Holy Family has a donkey and the guidance of the angel, with a guide showing them the way, seen in the image, with the light and the night. It’s... It’s the moment when there’s darkness, when you must run... The flight to Egypt isn’t always at night, I saw one by Tiepolo about a month ago, on a boat. And what I was saying, this is a Europeanized iconography, right? It’s an iconography with forests, it’s not the... When you see the medieval representations or the XV century ones, it’s in the desert, right? So, they’re different... I mean, the night should help a lot, but there aren’t trees to hide behind, right? There are no mountains. So, it seems very interesting to me, and going back to colonial painting, it’s a theme that was quite developed, the flight to Egypt. There aren’t many kilos, but the flight and the rest during the flight. Right? The rest, we have many representations of the Holy Family at rest because they became devotional or cult images, but one somewhat forgets that it was a moment when, of course, they’re tired from walking all night, and there comes a moment when they feel safe in the daytime and rest. So, there are these paintings by Melchor Pérez Holguín, or attributed to Melchor Pérez Holguín, where the Virgin is washing, then they find a river, and she washes the child’s clothes. A bit like what we were talking about with the diasporas, for example, the diaspora of so many Venezuelan compatriots who had to flee and brought their washing machine, that’s a bit like the objects you take when you must flee. So, the Virgin washes, well, it’s supposed to be that Saint Joseph will feed the family. So, there’s this whole story of the tree and the fruits that are given to the child and to the Virgin. José: And based on this reflection, it is often said that every history is a contemporary one, right? And here we have a bit of a trick question that we ask all our interviewees: if you could ask that painting something, and it would answer, what would it be? Olga: Let's see, you know what? It would be about this flight and, in general, the question is: who painted it? Considering, well, we know how paintings were created during the colonial period, with engravings being copied... But going to the more sensitive aspect of those who created these works, why copy the landscapes? I mean, why not... I believe this sense of flight, of displacement, has traversed human history and Latin America, I believe, forever, right? That danger of not being able to survive. Why copy Rubens' landscape? Maybe that would be my question for this painting. Kate: And to end this conversation, surely our audience wants to keep delving deeper, right? Both into this painting and into the exhibition you’ve done. So, could you give us a bibliographic reference for further reading? Olga: Well, one is... This work returned to its home, which it left in the XIX century, to the former headquarters in the center of the Caro and Cuervo Institute. We did an exhibition post-COVID, because COVID also got in the way, called "Back Home, the Vásquez of the Cuervos." The exhibition was very XIX century focused, and we had it until mid this year, until August. But at the Caro and Cuervo Institute, there's the text written for the exhibition, where much of the story I’ve shared here is told, and it’s called "Back Home." There’s also another text I wrote for the Museo Colonial, where the works are about the iconographies of the flights; about the history of these three flights, because here we mainly talked about one. It’s also an online text, called "The Flights of Vásquez. Kate: Perfect. Thank you so much, Olga. José: Thank you. Olga: Thank you for the invitation. José: Kate, what have we learned today? Kate: We’ve kicked off this sixth season with a very engaging conversation. I think what stood out the most to me was the concept of a constant escape, right? We see this in the iconography, with the continuous flight of the Holy Family. But at the same time, this piece itself has been moving or escaping from situations throughout its life, as Olga shared with us. José: And also, what I find interesting, and I think was very insightful, was what Olga said about how the values assigned to a piece change with movement. So, of course, we value it highly in Bogotá, and then people are surprised when it’s not as valued in France. But she also made us think, well, why does it matter if it’s not valued in France? You know? It holds local value and has a significance that’s familiar, which later becomes national. So, it has its own history and importance, and in the end... the truth is that art is often valued through comparison, but sometimes you could say that the cultural trajectory of an object is worth more than its technical virtuosity. Kate: That's right. So, thank you very much for joining us in this first episode. You can see an image of this Flight into Egypt on our Instagram page: José: Things have life. Kate: And follow us for the rest of a very beautiful season. José: See you. Kate: Bye bye.