Kate: José, today we are going into the world of smell. What do you think about musk? José: I don’t have many references about what musk is, but in Chile there is a very famous saying, I don’t know if it is Chilean, maybe Latin American or Spanish, that says “it smells like musk,” which is like something old, right? It’s like “oh, it smells like…” but it’s not negative, it’s just to say something very, very old. Kate: It’s interesting that it has this old connotation in the Latin American world, because today we are going to talk about the moment when it was introduced into the Hispanic world, with an engraving that shows the house of musk in China, which is part of the book Viaje de la China, written by Adriano de las Cortes, between 1625 and 1626. So, welcome to José: Las Cosas Tienen Vida. Kate: This is a podcast in which we talk about a historical object with the researcher who studies it. Today we have as a guest Omar Svriz-Wucherer. Omar has a PhD in history from Pablo de Olavide University in Spain, and he is currently a Tomás y Valiente postdoctoral researcher at the Autonomous University of Madrid. His main research lines focus on the work of the Society of Jesus in Latin American and Asian territories, especially in the Río de la Plata and Paraguay and China, the military history of these types of borders, and the trade exchanges developed in those lands. For that reason, he is the perfect person to tell us the story of musk. Welcome, Omar. José: Welcome. Omar: Thank you very much, thank you. Kate: To begin this episode, so our audience can imagine what this engraving of musk looks like, how would you describe it? Omar: Well, this engraving is the result of a trip to China, an accidental trip made by a Jesuit priest in the second decade of the seventeenth century, Adriano de las Cortes. So, besides giving us a detailed written account of his experience in China, he also leaves us an engraving that is very interesting and is the starting point of my analysis of musk. In the engraving you will find the representation of what is the musk ox and how the Chinese hunted that ox to obtain a small pouch that was near the belly of that deer, and in which a drying process took place and so on, until it reached the size of a small ball, which was the so-called musk that would later be used both in Chinese medicine and in its export to western territories. Kate: In the engraving you showed us that they show a house of musk, but what was musk for Chinese culture? Omar: Well, musk has a fundamental role, especially in medicine. As we know, Asian medicine, in particular Chinese medicine, has totally different parameters from western medicine. Someone who has lived in Chinese lands and in Macao for a while realizes the ways of consuming this type of medicine, which are totally different from our pharmacies. Here you find more a kind of shop where there are many different kinds of dried elements that are mostly consumed in soups. It is a totally different tradition from ours, I am speaking about the present of course, but this has its roots precisely in this early modern period. In that case, musk, especially in China, through these different types of consumption, mixed with different herbs and so on, was used, or at least the sources tell us that in Chinese culture it was mainly used for medical purposes and especially directed to pregnant women. It was one of the items that had certain special qualities. Later, as usually happens with many objects and surely in previous podcasts it has been seen, once the westerner, so to speak, arrives to this type of object, he gives it a new meaning and musk will gain other properties and other characteristics from its use in different fields that are far from medicine itself. I have also said that musk will reach a truly important role, for example, in perfumery, which is something that even today still uses musk for that purpose, especially toward the eighteenth century. And then it will also be an element that will be mixed in the consumption of chocolate, especially at the end of the seventeenth century and the beginning of the eighteenth century in Europe, and it will be a way of flavoring it, of giving it a totally different taste to that consumption that will expand in that period, as is well known, and above all it will give it a character of elite consumption. Not everyone can afford to mix chocolate with musk, and that will give it a very significant social consideration. José: What is the interest of these Jesuits in representing this type of practice and these objects? Omar: Well, I think that in the end what Adriano de las Cortes and the Jesuits in general try to do is to interpret a series of events that are totally foreign to them culturally, because the trip through China clearly creates a cultural shock, like a very strong cultural encounter between both perspectives, and of course he tries to represent it, if we look again at the engraving, with animals that are very familiar to him, they have certain features of clearly European animals and the shape of a deer, the long tail it has, and so on, would represent more, we could even link it to a dog in the way of representing a deer, and in reality it speaks of that attempt to adapt this new view of the interior of China through this musk to his own western knowledge. Of course, the Jesuits are at a moment, around 1627, when this trip of Father Adriano de las Cortes takes place. He did not intend to travel to China, but simply an accident on his ship that was taking him from the Philippines to Macao left him drifting, and then he begins to explore a territory that is totally, as I say, totally foreign to the Jesuits at that time. Their interests were in other Asian regions, mainly Japan, which was the main point of interest for the Jesuits, but they are always looking for a new territory to evangelize. China appeared as a true imperial giant in that period, which was very difficult to access, especially in religious terms. José: And in this case, you have shown us three paths, right? There is the Jesuit path, knowledge, trade, and medicine. The Jesuits transported it to Europe with what objective? To make money? For health? Or only for knowledge? Omar: Well, let’s see, I would like to believe that for the three, but in practice what the sources show us is that the Jesuits really look for this type of product. My experience, if we can say that, with Jesuit sources and especially with Jesuit commercial activities, is that they always look for products that gain higher market value to begin with, that is, products that are worth transporting, and especially in this case a product that has a very small volume. Musk balls take up very little space and have a significant market value. So in that sense it meets those qualities: it is easy to transport because of its size and above all it gives a great economic return. To give one example, and this is a bit the starting point of this talk, precisely the starting point is a conflict over a shipment of musk that was confiscated when it should not have been done that way, and by the authorities of the Philippines they confiscated a shipment from a ship and among it there was a shipment of musk belonging to the Jesuits, and a complaint begins that lasts many years according to the sources of the General Archive of the Indies. That interest clearly shows us that it was a very valuable product and that it could reach a high market value and therefore a great return for the Jesuits. So in general they are always transporting this type of product and also protected by the fact that they have legislation that allows them to transport goods without them being inspected by the crown. So that is an important starting point when trying to understand this commercial trade in those regions. Kate: And how does this lawsuit show us where they traded musk and how the Jesuits traded musk? Segunda parte: Omar: Well, this lawsuit I was talking about begins in 1648, and it is not a minor moment. We have to take that year into account, because the separation of the Iberian crowns, Spain and Portugal, had already begun around 1640, and we are in the middle of a global war between these crowns. So, in that sense, a ship coming from Macao that arrived near the coasts of the Philippines around that year was captured. It is not completely clear if it had an accident and ran aground on the Philippine coast or if it was captured on purpose by the authorities. What is certain is that the cargo of that ship was taken by the authorities of the Philippines. It came from Macao, and in that cargo we find the cates of musk that the vice-province of China was transporting with the idea of selling them and being able to support the mission. So the conflict begins in a period that is quite difficult to analyze because there is no longer direct trade between Macao and the Philippines. Instead, there is indirect trade. It is true that both ports continue their links mostly through the Jesuits, so tracing it is quite difficult. It is also true that at that time what Teresa Sena calls, in the case of the Jesuits, the search for a new Japan takes place, because Japan had already been closed to trade. The Jesuits had very important privileges there. They even had a certain amount of silk cargo they could send to Japanese lands, specifically to Nagasaki. But as we know, starting in 1641, the persecution of Catholics in Japan begins, and logically all this trade starts to decline. The Jesuits are looking for a new territory where they can redirect all that production or those different products they have, especially in the port of Macao. So in that sense they are searching for new regions, and that is when they begin to give greater importance to China and stronger connections with the Philippines, even if they were forbidden. José: And in terms of route, did this ship go from the Philippines to Mexico? Was Mexico used as a connection point? Or did it go from the Indian Ocean to the Mediterranean, going south? What was the route for this good? Omar: It is difficult to trace exactly how it reached Europe. Most historians agree that this type of product would arrive through the Manila galleon, which would be the most usual way. This does not mean that they were not redistributed through other routes, mainly through Portuguese or even Dutch networks, which also had importance. Knowing the exact path of one specific object is one of the biggest problems historians face. But beyond whether it passed through point A or point B, I think that sometimes we focus too much on the trade route and not enough on the reception and adaptation of the product, which is one of the lines I follow. I am not so interested in the trade routes themselves, because there is already a lot of good research on different regions. Personally, I have always believed that the Manila galleon is a bit overestimated, because there are other routes that brought Asian products to Latin America that have not been studied enough. For example, on the coast of Peru, from 1607 there are records of Chinese people in the registers of Lima, and those connections did not come through Manila or the Manila galleon. They came through a lot of trade in the South Pacific that has not been studied enough until now, at least from my point of view. So in that sense, I think that many times we discuss the routes an object followed, but we do not stop enough, and when I speak in plural I mean historians in general, or at least most of them, to think about how the product was received and what new meaning was given to it. That, to me, is the most interesting part. Musk can be a starting point, but it happens with many other objects. Kate: And thinking about the fact that musk comes from an animal, and to obtain it we have to hunt it, I wanted to know if with this new rise of the Jesuits transporting and trading it there was a problem of extinction of the animal, if it was at risk in that sense. Omar: I have not looked at it from the animal side but more from the finished product. But I do not think that… we also have to think that the influence of the Jesuits in China is often overestimated. In reality, the Jesuits in China had a very small influence. We are talking about a country that at that time already had millions of inhabitants, and the Christian influence was very limited. Even compared to Japan, in China the Jesuits mainly focused on the court, on the imperial court, and in a quite closed circle. It was almost impossible to have enough religious members to carry out a large conversion in Chinese territory. The Jesuits knew this. And from a commercial point of view, trade had an evangelizing purpose. That is, trade was meant to support the evangelizing mission. That is the goal of commercial activity, whether with musk or with yerba mate in Paraguay. The idea is to get information about a product that gives high commercial profit and in that way support the mission. But in the case of China, they knew from the beginning that it was almost impossible to carry out a large evangelizing effort. This would even create internal problems within the Society, for example with the debate about the Chinese rites, which would take place in the eighteenth century, and even conflicts between Jesuits of French origin and those of Spanish or Portuguese origin. There was a big debate about how to carry out evangelization. But beyond that, it is true that their influence was very small, and they did not impose the consumption of musk. They simply redirected a product they found there. In this case, consumption was in Chinese hands. They did not promote more hunting or anything like that. On the contrary, they adapted or bought a product that seemed to them to be part of a group of Asian products. Some were more famous, like silk or porcelain. Those always took up more space on ships than musk. But musk was an interesting complement because it had other uses, and especially in the eighteenth century, as I said before, it would have a growing consumption in Europe. Kate: And how did our case, our lawsuit, end? Omar: Well, that is the interesting part, or not, depending on who reads the article. In reality, the lawsuit does not end. We do not have a final resolution, and that is interesting and often what the sources show us. What appears is that starting in 1648, the Jesuits began a complaint before the authorities of the peninsula for that shipment of musk they had sent, about 55 cates of musk that this Macao ship was transporting and that was captured by the authorities of the Philippines. They asked for the return of that musk or the payment of its value. That complaint did not have a good result, because we do not have a resolution. We know that at least until 1666, eighteen years after the beginning of the conflict, the Jesuits were still asking the Spanish authorities for the return of that product. What was the main argument for not returning it? Basically, as I said before, they were in a context of war with the Portuguese. In the sources, sometimes it is said that the ship had an accident and ran aground near the Philippine coast, so being a foreign and enemy ship at that moment, they simply captured it and took advantage of the cargo. The Jesuits kept asking for it back because the Society of Jesus, as we know, had an organization that was somewhat separate from the imperial structures of each monarchy. They did not have to pay for the conflict between Portuguese and Spaniards. But the truth is that the sources from the General Archive of the Indies do not show that they paid them or returned the product, and much less returned the product itself, which I suppose during those eighteen years had already been sold in one way or another by the authorities. And there is another element. That particular shipment of musk had been given to the Jesuits by Ferdinand III, emperor of what is today the Austrian part of the Habsburg Empire, who had a relationship with the king of Spain at that time. So he made an official complaint directly to his cousin, the king of Spain, about that shipment he had given to the Jesuits and that he learned had been captured in a somewhat strange way from the Jesuits of Macao. So the fact that there is no resolution does not take away importance from this analysis. I like to think that the path and the different voices that appeared during this real struggle of interests in those territories go beyond just a shipment of musk. It gives us a starting point to see how the Society of Jesus at that time could become very strong in legal claims, if we want to call them that, mainly defending economic interests. Because it was not directly about evangelization. They argued that this shipment of musk was economically essential because it would support the mission in China, which at that time was going through serious difficulties. José: And how is musk valued today? Omar: Well, to be honest, I have not really stopped to think about how it is valued today. As I said before, it has more functions linked to perfumery up to today. But it is true that it is part of a process where other materials are added to reach a certain smell in general. But yes, for example, mixing it with other products for consumption, like I mentioned with chocolate or similar things, has been abandoned, or at least usually abandoned. I do not know anyone who today goes to a café and orders chocolate with musk. But it is true that its use has continued mainly in perfumery. José: And how did you start studying musk? Did you just find it… was it a surprise? Omar: I started studying musk really by accident. At that time, I was doing postdoctoral research in a project called GSEM, which was Global Encounters between Europe and China. It was a Starting Grant from the European Research Council and it was based at Pablo de Olavide University in Seville. The idea of the project was to compare the economic activities of the Jesuits in Macao and Paraguay. That later became a book published by Palgrave in 2023. So the first idea was to look for traditional products that had been more studied by historians before. That is, silk, porcelain, the most famous Chinese products, the ones that appear more in the sources. And while searching in the Archive of the Indies, in the section about the Philippines, I found this conflict. And by following the thread, as historians usually do, I was struck by how long it continued over the years. So that did not become a book, because it was limited archive material, but it did become a small article, which is the starting point of this talk, or I think it is. But it goes beyond musk. Because the real starting point of that postdoctoral research was that after the expulsion of the Jesuits in the region of Paraguay, I found some products, porcelain and especially silks, where their origin from China was specified. So that was the real starting point of the research: how did a product from China reach a region as forgotten as Paraguay? The comparison was a bit uneven, because Macao is closer to China and there is almost constant circulation of Asian products. That is why I found musk there. And not only in this case. If we look at the work of Charles Boxer about the famous black ships that went to Japan, we see that in some of their cargo lists musk always appears. It is a constant product circulating in Asian territories through the Jesuits of Macao. In Macao, the Jesuits even owned ships and had a very clear commercial role. In Paraguay, things were different, and Asian products were much more rare to find in those territories. So the first motivation of the research was that comparison, through the Jesuits, between two frontier regions of the Iberian empires where interests often clashed. Kate: And going back to our object, the one we started the episode with, that engraving, if you could ask it something and it could answer, what would you ask? Omar: That is a good question. What would I ask the musk? I would mainly ask what happened to it. That would be the starting point. In whose hands did that specific shipment end up? But beyond that anecdotal question about the result, because many times we focus on the result of a conflict and not on the conflict itself, I think I would ask how the object adapted, or how it experienced that adaptation to western consumption. Because in the end what happens with this product is that it is completely given a new meaning. That Asian Chinese medical function is forgotten. I do not want to say the word respect, but there is a tradition more linked to nature from a medical point of view in Chinese culture. And then it takes on a totally different role in western culture. I do not know if the object would be more or less happy after that change of use, but its meaning clearly changes. And I think that would be one of the questions I would ask it: how did it face that change, and which use does it like more after this conversation? José: And maybe our audience wants to learn more about this topic. Could you recommend a book or text to go deeper? Omar: Well, I will not promote myself, I will leave that to you. But I would go back to the text by Adriano de las Cortes, which was the starting point, the engraving of the musk. Because it is still a vision of China seen as something exotic, as a first encounter. Adriano de las Cortes finds a totally new world and tries to represent it. In the different published versions of his book, there is a very recent one published by Sílex in the Sílex Ultramar collection, if I remember correctly, and in all those editions these engravings appear. I refer to one in particular because I was interested in musk, but there are different engravings that show daily life in that China that was foreign to that world. On the Chinese coast there was more contact with the western world, with Manila and different European traders arriving in Canton or other coastal territories. But Father Adriano de las Cortes managed to reach the interior and see another China, another Chinese empire, and he represents it both in his words, which are very interesting, and in his engravings, which I think are one of the strongest points of that publication. Kate: Perfect, thank you very much, Omar, for this very interesting conversation. José: Thank you very much. Omar: Thank you. José: Kate, what have we learned today? Kate: In this conversation with Omar, we returned to a topic we have seen in several episodes, which is the export of a good that comes from one culture. In this case it comes from China, but we also saw it with cochineal, which Diana Heredia talked about, and with sandalwood, which Natalia Gandara talked about. The encounter, the clash of different cultures, is not only between people, but it also changes ecosystems. It changes forms of trade. And in that sense, we see how musk maybe did not change so much in its production, at least as far as we know, but its way of moving around the world did change. And the knowledge about what people did with this product changed too. We saw that it became linked to new things like perfume and also the consumption of chocolate. So we see how these consumer objects create new social, technological, and knowledge networks. José: And it also helps us understand that historical agents, or people from that time, like the Jesuits, had multiple roles or identities. They were religious, but they were also economic actors. So I think it shows dimensions that many times history does not clearly show, like these Jesuits as traders who saw a product, analyzed it, and transported it. And it became a luxury good. Kate: So if you want to see the engraving of the musk hunt, you can see it on our Instagram. José: @lascosastienenvida Kate: And you can also visit our website for more information… José: www.LasCosasTienenVida.com Kate: And if you liked this episode, please give us a rating on Spotify or the app you use, because that helps us share this podcast and helps objects like this musk reach more people. So we will see you in the next episode. José: Bye!